tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post3646628617539633111..comments2024-01-30T11:09:33.145-05:00Comments on Dandy In The Underworld: Beyond Good and Evil: "Charming" and "Tedious"Jeremy Duncanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03155761802144571888noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post-43209107693793685292013-01-23T00:51:34.071-05:002013-01-23T00:51:34.071-05:00i tend to find everybody charming. maybe that'...i tend to find everybody charming. maybe that's my fault thoughDungeon Smashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17400977043480856370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post-159725328230322922012-06-26T15:16:54.298-04:002012-06-26T15:16:54.298-04:00It is amusing. And, if regarded as nothing more th...It <b><i>is</i></b> amusing. And, if regarded as nothing more than a mere amusement, then you're right that the most amusing way for most people to enjoy it is for them to just enjoy it, not analyze it.<br /><br />But I don't think it really is nothing more than a mere amusement. I think it's also an insight into how some Chaotic people see the world. And, when regarded as that, I think it's also interesting to analyze. That's why I did so.<br /><br />Just one question, which I hope isn't tedious:<br /><br />What is it about Charm that you see as different from Charisma?https://www.blogger.com/profile/14398295844409607075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post-40161188117490398652012-06-26T14:44:06.534-04:002012-06-26T14:44:06.534-04:00Dictators and despots are admittedly problematic a...Dictators and despots are admittedly problematic as far as this metric is concerned, as they tend to be all over the map in terms of Law/Chaos Charm/Tedium. Looking back on it, Gaddafi was probably not the best example.Jeremy Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03155761802144571888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post-7896333962083632932012-06-26T14:39:07.279-04:002012-06-26T14:39:07.279-04:00I'm not really interested in persuading anyone...I'm not really interested in persuading anyone of anything as far as this post is concerned. I proposed it as an amusing thought-experiment, and that's all I really intended. To split hairs over the nitty-gritty of such a slight thing seems counter to the spirit in which it was intended. Granted, that might be an inevitable consequence of putting something out into the gaming blogosphere -- as a species, we tend to quantify the hell out of the abstract, but a detailed, exhaustive explication seems to me to be a frankly tedious exercise. For me, Charm works the same way as the old chestnut about "obscenity"-- "I know it when I see it" -- and subject to the same level of subjectivity, prejudice, and whim.Jeremy Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03155761802144571888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post-84239904873867819272012-06-26T13:44:35.593-04:002012-06-26T13:44:35.593-04:00It just occurred to me that your example of Chaoti...It just occurred to me that your example of Chaotic Tedious -- Muammar Gaddafi -- might, ironically, actually be an example of Lawful Charming. It's hard to get into a position of leading a nation and stay there for a long time without having at least Lawful tendencies. So he probably wasn't Chaotic. And it's hard to get into a position of leading a nation and stay there for a long time without also <i>"charming"</i> lots of people. But...oops...that's probably just high Charisma at work again. Never mind.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14398295844409607075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post-27941468449168267642012-06-26T13:05:14.382-04:002012-06-26T13:05:14.382-04:00Yes. But it didn't persuade me because I don&#...Yes. But it didn't persuade me because I don't agree that Dale Cooper is Lawful. I think he's Neutral on the Lawful-Chaotic axis. And I think his <i>"charming"</i> personality is due to both high Charisma and slightly Chaotic tendencies.<br /><br />To persuade me that being Charming is separate from both having high Charisma and being Chaotic, I'll need to see an example of somebody who has neither high Charisma nor Chaotic tendencies, but is still Charming.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14398295844409607075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post-72369934747653442902012-06-26T09:13:53.221-04:002012-06-26T09:13:53.221-04:00You did see the part at the end where I give an ex...You did see the part at the end where I give an example of Lawful Charming, right?Jeremy Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03155761802144571888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post-44419147828688922392012-06-26T06:54:02.759-04:002012-06-26T06:54:02.759-04:00While the Charming-Tedious alignment axis certainl...While the Charming-Tedious alignment axis certainly is amusing, it's really just the Chaotic-Lawful alignment axis renamed from the Chaotic point of view.<br /><br />Just as Evil people think of themselves as things like <i>"intelligent"</i> and <i>"pragmatic"</i> rather than <i>"evil"</i>, Chaotic people think of themselves as things like <i>"charming"</i> and <i>"sassy"</i> rather than <i>"chaotic"</i>.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14398295844409607075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post-63388666458792185442011-10-29T14:14:50.864-04:002011-10-29T14:14:50.864-04:00Have you ever, once even, seen someone who is a ch...<i>Have you ever, once even, seen someone who is a charmless bore or jack ass in real life (fortunately a rarity these days) play something other than a Tedious character...</i><br /><br />Shit. I want to sneak into your social circles... I know altogether too many jack asses and bores. Maybe it's a case of like-attracting-like... maybe I am a boring jackass and just sink to common social level of my type.Stefan Poaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192911890556534923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post-78472431362903825522011-10-29T13:25:03.331-04:002011-10-29T13:25:03.331-04:00Having dated several catty, witty, and a tad evil ...Having dated several catty, witty, and a tad evil graduate students in my time, it's a distinction I readily grok. <br /><br />I can't help but think that the charming-tedious axis is really more about the player than the character, right? <br /><br />Have you ever, once even, seen someone who is a charmless bore or jack ass in real life (fortunately a rarity these days) play something other than a Tedious character--no matter how much they characterize their PCs and NPCs in terms glowingly Charming? (And this is only multiplied exponentially when playing Chaotics).<br /><br />On the flip-side I have seen tedious-described characters that are extremely Charming in creative players or GMs hands.Chris Kutalikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01414743509426875792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post-89352778600440837352011-10-29T06:25:29.440-04:002011-10-29T06:25:29.440-04:00Oh, it makes complete sense... I was just musing o...Oh, it makes complete sense... I was just musing on my love/hate for the charming Oscar Wilde types in a stream of consciousness way. Nothing beyond the inside of my own skull is implied.Stefan Poaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192911890556534923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post-39690295589634369312011-10-29T02:07:20.645-04:002011-10-29T02:07:20.645-04:00Love it. What would neutral be? "Meh"?Love it. What would neutral be? "Meh"?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10678503778316350427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post-60640981288424692612011-10-28T23:13:51.106-04:002011-10-28T23:13:51.106-04:00@Limpey: I'm not in any way attempting to make...@Limpey: I'm not in any way attempting to make any insight into morality or ethics as they apply in our world in this post. Even the hard-nosed practical concerns of everyday life (person x is interesting, stylish, and delightful company, but completely undependable) for the purposes of this post, just occupy another space on a conceptual grid (Chaotic Charming). <br /><br />Does that make sense at all?Jeremy Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03155761802144571888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post-69287822599098492642011-10-28T22:25:50.766-04:002011-10-28T22:25:50.766-04:00I don't know. There are lots of charming peop...I don't know. There are lots of charming people whom I think would leave the world a better place with their demise. And tedious people are often tedious, but, fuck, when you need someone to put all the whatevers in alphabetical order the tedious person will sit down and do it while the charming person will not only offer you a dozen reasons why they shouldn't do it but will even manage to make you feel guilty for having asked.<br /><br />I admire people like Oscar Wilde. I just suspect that it is easier to do so having never directly dealt with the man.Stefan Poaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192911890556534923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post-74894463106578166372011-10-28T21:57:28.038-04:002011-10-28T21:57:28.038-04:00Maybe I was thinking of Samuel Delaney...Maybe I was thinking of Samuel Delaney...Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post-21080172691485823782011-10-28T21:20:52.110-04:002011-10-28T21:20:52.110-04:00@Zak: I may have misunderstood, but you're jus...@Zak: I may have misunderstood, but you're just talking about Wilde, right? I understand Moorcock's (all jokes about his name aside) as straight as the arrow of Law.Jeremy Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03155761802144571888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post-39385054609329107702011-10-28T19:47:33.564-04:002011-10-28T19:47:33.564-04:00Another nice thing about this system is it's M...Another nice thing about this system is it's Moorcock + Wilde. Proving once and for all that homosexuals have always had a better grasp on morality than the rest of us.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-786088692697066600.post-50314870592158223972011-10-28T19:24:20.801-04:002011-10-28T19:24:20.801-04:00You did it. You cut the goddamn Gordian knot.You did it. You cut the goddamn Gordian knot.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.com